Annihilator and forced attacks

Let us use the following example as the reference point:

I control 3 creatures, two eldrazi spawn and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. My opponent has 3 creatures as well, two Elvish Archdruids and a Llanowar elf. My opponent also controls a Gideon Jura. If, on thier turn, they use Gideon's first effect to force me to attack Gideon with all creatures I control on my next turn, and I did not have a way to prevent Emrakul from attacking such as tapping for an effect, would i be disqualified if they sacrificed a basic land?

They forced my creature to attack and I believe that this would be the same as making my opponent play an instant dq combo. Basically what I am asking is if my opponent were to force me to do an illegal move, would I be disqualified or would they?

yes i think

Okay, now what say I use the enchant Guard Duty and put it on emrakul and then you destroy it and use gideons effect, then would i be dq'd? there are so many what if's to the situation that either annihilator creatures need to be banned or something

Just my opinion, but if you play a card with annihilator, then you are opening yourself up for a ton of things to have happen to you. I think if your opponent forced you to attack & sacrificed a land to DQ you, then it should be an allowable DQ to you. I would applaud the Gideon player for the creative way of handling the threat you posed.

In regards to your note above regarding "this would be the same as making my opponent play an instant dq combo" - I respectfully disagree because your opponent didn't bring the annihilator to the game with an intent make a DQ combo - you brought that card.

The rule is that basic lands are off limits. Annihilator really can seem to muddy that rule, but its still the rule.

Kaotics wrote:

Okay, now what say I use the enchant Guard Duty and put it on emrakul and then you destroy it and use gideons effect, then would i be dq'd? there are so many what if's to the situation that either annihilator creatures need to be banned or something

Again, just my opinion - In the context of clan rules, really, there is no point in using annihilator cards - save them for afterhours & have a ball.
But to answer your question - if u play anihilator AND make it defender, AND someone is stupid enough to disenchant it, AND someone was there with Gideon AND made you attack AND sac'd a basic land to DQ you, then I would say you would be DQ'd

what about if someone uses sorin's ultimate ability and basically uses my turn to play an ld card from my hand? they make me target a basic land. now, do i get dq'd for the card being in my hand as a potential weapon or do the get dq'd for using it that way? I control the card, they control my turn. who gets the DQ then?

lol kao - ok - in that case, if Player A took over Player B's turn & destroyed an opponent's basic land, I would say that the DQ would go to Player A since he is controling the spell.

that is what i am talking about with the emrakul example.

I disagree - in the emerakul example, you control the crit - a spell of your opponent is making it attack - although u still control it.

but it is person A forcing person B to do something that would end up forcing person b to be dq'd

Well, if you brought that eldrazi deck with these abilities, its a automatically DQ if an opponent wants a instant DQ by forcing your creature to attack and making opponent sacrifice basic land. I think this should be addressed on how we use them, but again, I think I support what Dark says.

Example #1: IF I play Ulamog's Crusher that reads "annihilator 2. Ulamog's Crusher attacks each turn if able" and I attacked Kao then Kao sacrifices a basic land, I get automatic DQ'ed and Kao is not DQ'ed.

Example #2: If I play Ulamog's Crusher that reads "annihilator 2. Ulamog's Crusher attacks each turn if able" and I attacked Kao and he sacrifices 2 creatures, that is totally legal as long as no basic land is sacrificed.

Example #3: If I play Hand of Emrakul that reads "You may sacrifice four Eldrazi Spawn rather than pay Hand of Emrakul's mana cost, annihilator 1" and I attack, Kao sacrifices a basic land, I get automatic DQ'ed and Kao is not DQ'ed.

Example #4: If I play Hand of Emrakul that reads "You may sacrifice four Eldrazi Spawn rather than pay Hard of Emrakul's mana cost, Annihilator 1" and I attack and he sacrifices a creature instead of sacrifices basic land, that is totally legal within the current clan rule.

Example #5: If I play two of that cards that I gave the examples above and I attack, that is illegal because it makes opponent sacrifices more permanents as part of the illegal combo rule that states "any illegal combo, such as mass sacrifice, mass destruction involving destruction of a basic land, or mass wipe is hereby strictly illegal and it is a automatic disqualification".

This is what clan rule states as of current. We have a long way to go to discuss how we are going to use those eldrazi cards. In Afterhour, it is totally legal since it is no-hold-barred and you can do whatever you want in my examples above.

Note: Those examples are in any clan sanctioned events and not in Afterhour events as part of the scenario I create.

Kaotics wrote:

but it is person A forcing person B to do something that would end up forcing person b to be dq'd

in your annihilator example - yes, as a 'defensive' move
in your sorin example, no - they are stupid to use your ld card to destroy a basic so they are dq'd

Okay? These scenarios are quite abstract kao - and it seems we are starting to go on about it. Just know if you control a spell that causes basic ld, then you will be DQ'd. As a general rule of thumb, play it safe & don't bring anything that would do that. And if there is a dispute during play, then the officers of the clan make a decision on what they feel is in accordance with the rules.

With the emrakul example, emrakul could be swaped out for say kozilk, the butcher of truth, the point of even playing one of them is for thier ability. If i put guard duty on emrakul (because he has flying) and you bust it with a disenchant and then use gideon to make me attack and i cant stop emrakul from attacking, i get screwed when you go to sacrifice. you can sack 6 basic lands or 1 basic land it doesnt matter because I cannot control my declare attackers step. I lose that step completely and am forced to attack even though i know i might get dq'd.


I just want to know if forcing a player to do something that could be considered a disqualifying offense would dq the owner of the spell/ability or the player who forced the action.

Under current clan rule, your opponent forced your creature to attack is legal. If the clan rule is changed that states "Forcing your opponent to instantly DQ'ed by forcing your eldrazi creature to attack using the annihilator ability and opponent sacrifices basic land shall be DQ'd as well." then that forced attack using the ability of annihilator to a opponent is illegal. Right now, the current rule says it is legal to force your creature to attack and get yourself dq'ed and not the opponent. Some clans out there have that annihilator rule that says forcing someone to disqualify is a permanent banned in the clan, depending on the seriousness of the offense. This clan do not have that rule.

Kaotics wrote:

With the emrakul example, emrakul could be swaped out for say kozilk, the butcher of truth, the point of even playing one of them is for thier ability. If i put guard duty on emrakul (because he has flying) and you bust it with a disenchant and then use gideon to make me attack and i cant stop emrakul from attacking, i get screwed when you go to sacrifice. you can sack 6 basic lands or 1 basic land it doesnt matter because I cannot control my declare attackers step. I lose that step completely and am forced to attack even though i know i might get dq'd.


I just want to know if forcing a player to do something that could be considered a disqualifying offense would dq the owner of the spell/ability or the player who forced the action.

Kao - Why would you use an annihilator as a defender? this is going on abstractly now & I already put in my opinion on it. :-) Lets try to be sensible here. If you keep digging, then You'll find something to get around whatever you are trying to get around, but if its iffy, then know that it will be during clan play that it will be judged upon by the officers.

I use them for thier ability, honestly now, how many dragons have 15 power? He can block any number of creatures if I play certain cards. He is a massive defender. People questioned me when I brought krosan cloudscraper out and put guard duty on him. honestly, the question i have is about being forced to do something that could get another person disqualified. I can drop the eldrazi and jut go with that. If i forced someone to do something that may be illegal for clan play, would i get the dq or would they?

See previous posts for my interpretation of the rules relative to what you are asking. If you control what does the basic ld, then you will be disqualified. There is a clear distinction in magic as to who has control of a spell. There are also other spells out there that make your spells that you control do things you dont want - its part of the game. There are also spells that allow you to control other spells. This is a clear cut distinction IMHO

i totally agree with all of trees posts!!!!!!

Here is my final peace on the subject.... If a player knowingly forces another player to perform an illegal play, such as someone having enough mana to cast walk the aeons 5 times and someone else using sorin to make them do so, or someone playing an ld card and somone else swerving it to a basic land, the player who forced the spell or ability to do the illegal act would be the one to get disqualified. I could care less about playing the eldrazi spells in the clan, i have already sold my legendary ones to avoid any temptation. I really dont care about a ruling, i just wont use them when playng a clannie. as for the other scenarios, dq should not fall to the person who owns the ability, it falls on the one who forces the illegal action.

Kaotics wrote:

Here is my final peace on the subject.... If a player knowingly forces another player to perform an illegal play, such as someone having enough man to cast walk the aeons 5 times and someone else using sorin to make them do so, or someone playing an ld card and somone else swerving it to a basic land, the player who forced the spell or ability to do the illegal act would be the one to get disqualified. I could care less about playing the eldrazi spells in the clan, i have already sold my legendary ones to avoid any temptation. I really dont care about a ruling, i just wont use them when playng a clannie. as for the other scenarios, dq should not fall to the person who owns the ability, it falls on the one who forces the illegal action.

Very valid argument & understandable. We'll see what the head honcho krossus McKrosserson has to say. These are important concepts to discuss.

Anyone bold enough to play the "Annihlator" mechanic in our "Core" events plays so at his/her own risk. If forced to attack by any card, then the player who controls the "Annihliator" mechanic will be DQ'd regardless if it was against his/her will.

Let me elaborate even more.....If you started the game w/ "Annihlator" cards in your deck, then switching your armies to another player does not exempt you from being DQ'd if you decide to play a card that switches player creatures, decks, graveyards, etc. If you play "Annihlator" cards in your deck, you will be DQ'd if those cards force anyone to sac "Basic Lands."

I will not debate this "mechanic" or "What If" scenarios any further.

alright then.... so the mechanic is taken care of, but what about my real question, if player A forces player B to play something or have a combination of cards that would result in a dq, who gets the axe, person A or person B?

Kaotics wrote:

alright then.... so the mechanic is taken care of, but what about my real question, if player A forces player B to play something or have a combination of cards that would result in a dq, who gets the axe, person A or person B?

If player "A" controls another players (B) turn, and he/she is forced to destroy a "non-basic" land, then player "A" is DQ'd because it was out of player Bs control. Same goes w/ any other DQ offense that can be imagined.

Basically if you force another player to play anything that is considered "DQ" criteria, then "You" will be disqualified, not the player who possessed the potential threat. However if the player who controls the "DQ" card plays it on his/her own volition, then obviously he/she would be disqualified.

I don't think I am reading this clear enough. You're saying if a Player A who controls that Annihilator mechanic creature and player B forces Player A to have that Annihilator mechanic creature to attack and then player B chose to sacrifice the "basic" land, then Player A gets disqualified because of the mechanic of the Annihilator or would it be Player A and B to get disqualified? That is the real question I want to make sure it is clarified within the clan rules.

Admin wrote:

Anyone bold enough to play the "Annihlator" mechanic in our "Core" events plays so at his/her own risk. If forced to attack by any card, then the player who controls the "Annihliator" mechanic will be DQ'd regardless if it was against his/her will.

I dont think he can be much more clear than this panther.